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Photographer, The World September 1976
The Commission resumes on Tuesday, 21st September 1976.
[…]
Mr. Nzima:
The first place we touched it was Naledi High School.
Mr. Hlungwani:
Why Naledi High School?
Nzima:
Because we were told that the high schools they are going to stage a demonstration on the 16th.
Hlungwani:
Yes, but there are quite a number of high schools. Why specifically did you go to Naledi High School?
Nzima:
Our intention was to check to all high schools.
Hlungwani:
So it was just coincidental that you went to …
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Did you know that Naledi had some trouble with the police somewhere in May?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
To be exact on the 8th May.
Nzima:
Yes, I remember that.
Hlungwani:
You knew that?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
And you know that a police car had been burned that day?
Nzima:
Yes, I remember that.
Hlungwani:
And you also know that the police were pelted with stones that day?
Nzima:
I only read in the paper, I did not cover that event.
Hlungwani:
Yes, never mind whether you saw it yourself, the evidence is that there was such a thing.
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
So you read about it.
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
So you knew about it.
Nzima:
Yes, I knew about that.
Hlungwani:
Was it not the reason that you went to Naledi High School?
Nzima:
No, it was not for that reason.
Hlungwani:
Now, you went to Naledi High School. What did you find there?
Nzima:
We found that the children had already left the school.
Hlungwani:
What time was it? When you arrived there.
Nzima:
It was about 7 o'clock.
[…]
Hlungwani:
You found that the students had already left and then you proceeded to Morris Isaacson.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Where you found that the students had also just left.
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
And then you proceeded to Sizwe Store in Mofolo Village. Is that where you met Miss Tema's group?
Nzima:
That is correct.
[…]
Hlungwani:
So you did not see the students before you reached Sizwe Store, you did not meet any group of students marching?
Nzima:
No, when we were at Morris Isaacson High School, we found that they had already left, but we followed a group down there to Sizwe Stores then we followed them.
Hlungwani:
You followed them just because you saw where they were?
Nzima:
We saw a group of students gathered there, yes.
Hlungwani:
… Did you march along with the students?
Nzima:
Yes, we did.
Hlungwani:
You marched along with …
Nzima:
The students were marching towards the east to Orlando West High which is the Matsike High School.
Hlungwani:
Did you get out of your car and march on foot with the students?
Nzima:
Yes, I followed them.
Hlungwani:
Were there placards and singing?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
What were they singing? Nkosi Sikalele or Morena Vuluka?
Nzima:
The first group we got at the Sizwe Stores they were singing Nkosi Sikalele as far as I can remember.
Hlungwani:
That is now the Zulu version of the anthem?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
And did they change later on to sing the anthem in Sotho [Morena Vuluka]?
Nzima:
Yes, when we arrived at Orlando West High we found that the other group of students were there. Then they grouped together, then they started singing in Sotho the national anthem.
[…]
Nzima:
The one [placard] which I remember it was saying: "Away with Afrikaans" and another one said: "Afrikaans is poison," I do not memorise the words because there were so many different slogans on those placards.
Hlungwani:
And from then you waited there, took pictures of the singing students, didn't you?
Nzima:
That is right.
Hlungwani:
And the other group, one group joined them there.
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
From which direction or from which school?
Nzima:
I don't not know from which school, because as they were marching towards Orlando High, they went via Dube Location now, they were collecting students from every school there.
Hlungwani:
They collected students as they went along?
Nzima:
Yes. And some were just leaving their classes and joined them, the march.
Hlungwani:
And those you say leaving the classroom to join the group, were they perhaps forced to do so by the leaders of the group or anybody else?
Nzima:
As the singing was going on, I saw some were just leaving their classrooms, running to the street and joining the others. I do not remember seeing anyone wresting them from their classrooms, I do not remember that, because I was marching along the main road, but it was just a confusion of running up and down of the students there.
Hlungwani:
But you did not see anybody being invited or forced into the group?
Nzima:
No, I did not see that
Hlungwani:
Now, as the group marched, you could see that there were leaders of this march?
Nzima:
I saw some students which were marching forward, but I did not take them as leaders. I thought maybe they are just directing that this is their planned route where we are going to turn and whereto.
Hlungwani:
As if those walking or marching in front were directing the march.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Which road to follow.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Did it not appear to you that the front students were sort of elder students ranging from 21, 22 or even from 19 onwards?
Nzima:
I can believe so because they were bigger than those who were following them behind.
Hlungwani:
You know that the wearing of uniform is compulsory in Soweto?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
Every student going to school must have a uniform every day.
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
Now, amongst the marchers did you see some without uniform?
Nzima:
The group who came there, they all had uniform to identify their schools. As far as I remember there was no one without uniform.
Hlungwani:
Yes, now they went along now singing Morena Vuluka and then?
Nzima:
They sang Nkosi Sikalele as they were going up, the Morena Vuluka was sung at the entrance of Orlando High where they found the other group, then they gathered there, they stood at one point singing Morena Vuluka.
Hlungwani:
Did they not change to Morena Vuluka while they were grouping there waiting for the other students to join them?
Nzima:
They changed immediately when they arrived there.
Hlungwani:
They went to a certain point after they had been joined by quite a number of students and then they were a large group.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Approximately what number?
Nzima:
The number was so much that I can just estimate a group of 500 or 8,000—mean 5,000—8,000 there.
Hlungwani:
That is your …
Nzima:
Yes, or 10,000 I can say.
Hlungwani:
At what stage did the police come on the scene?
Nzima:
From which direction?
Hlungwani:
What stage? Was it when they were at the gate of the Orlando West High School?
Nzima:
Yes, correct.
Hlungwani:
You told us they moved then after being joined by the others, they went up to the gate of Orlando—is it Orlando High School?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
When the gate was closed for them.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
That is just where they went to group and then continued singing Morena Vuluka.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Did the police then appear?
Nzima:
Yes, the police appeared.
Hlungwani:
At that stage?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
And what happened when the police came?
Nzima:
I saw the police were coming from the west towards the group of students and what I noticed [is] that the police threw something which made a smoke among the students. When that thing dropped on the ground, it has a smoke with it.
Yes, they arrived in a vehicle which contained about 5 or 6 vans and private cars.
Hlungwani:
You say 6 vans?
Nzima:
I cannot estimate exactly.
Hlungwani:
Could there have been 10?
Nzima:
Yes, there can be that number.
Hlungwani:
But they could be less too?
Nzima:
About 10. Let me put it that way.
Hlungwani:
Now, if I tell you that we have got evidence that there were only three police vehicles then, would you dispute that?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
You would definitely say …
Nzima:
No, it is not true. The students at that time were singing and waving their placards and then the police approached them and threw the teargas at the crowd.
Hlungwani:
Before the throwing of the teargas, didn't you see some students or somebody else throwing stones or perhaps one from the side or from the group of the students?
Nzima:
No, there was no such. I was right in front of the group direct to the direction where the police came from.
Hlungwani:
You were right in front of the group?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
Were you then facing the police? If I were now in the group of the police and then let us say the group of students in front of me, would I see you in front of them?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
Which is now you are facing the police together with the students?
Nzima:
Exactly.
Hlungwani:
The students or the demonstrators were behind you then?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
And the police in front of you.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Hlungwani:
Now we have that situation now. What happend then?
Nzima:
When the police were throwing the teargas, then the students started. After the students started then followed by the shots from the police, then the confusion started there. I cannot account what happened and how many throwings of the stones and bullets there.
[…]
Nzima:
I ran out of the crowd of the students, out of the group, then as I was running out of the group, the students also dispersed, it was a confusion of running into circles. The police were now moving towards them as they continued throwing the teargas, then the shoot would follow. Then it was throwing of stones and the shooting which I cannot account.
I saw the shooting, I did not hear the shooting.
The first shot, I saw a White policeman in uniform, then the Blacks followed to shoot too.
Moffat Zungu got the picture of the police shooting because I do not know where did he happen to be in there, but I saw him now just next to the police where they were shooting, at the shooting spot.
No, I could not get a picture of them shooting, because I ran away that time.
Hlungwani:
We have a picture here of only Black police pointing firearms at somewhere, I do not know whether they are pointing at a group or what. I would you to look at this, whether you know that scene.
Nzima:
Yes, I do.
Chairman Cillié [intervenes]:
Was that picture taken by you?
Nzima:
No, this was taken by Moffat Zungu who arrived there at the same time when the shooting started.
Hlungwani:
But do you remember that view?
Nzima:
Yes.
Hlungwani:
Do you know some of the members of the police there?
Nzima:
I beg your pardon?
Hlungwani:
Do you know some of them, the Blacks there?
Nzima:
No, I do not know them.
Hlungwani:
But you saw that there were Whites also.
Nzima:
There were Whites.
Hlungwani:
You said the first man to shoot was a White.
Nzima:
Correct.
Hlungwani:
And then followed the Blacks.
Nzima:
That is right.
Hlungwani:
I have got evidence here that there was a warning first and then a baton charge, there was a warning, the teargas, a baton charge. Did you witness that?
Nzima:
No, there was no baton charge and there was no warning shot. The first was the teargas, then followed by a direct shoot to the crowd.
Hlungwani:
We have evidence here that the first shots were directed in the air over the heads of the demonstrators.
Nzima:
No, as far as I had seen, I did not see any warning shots.
Hlungwani:
As you stood in front of the demonstrators, the students, behind you was there any wall?
Nzima:
Wall?
Hlungwani:
A wall, yes.
Nzima:
No, there was no wall.
Hlungwani:
Because we have evidence that one policeman was shooting over the heads of the students, the bullet went to lodge against the wall or it hit against the wall.
Nzima:
No, the wall was very far. The nearest wall was Orlando High which is right inside the high fence. At that spot there is no nearest wall where the bullets should have landed.
Hlungwani:
Are there no houses there?
Nzima:
The houses were on the left-hand side of the police as they were facing the east. But there is a road going down, no houses in that road.
I do not know the name of the street, but it is passing through in front of Orlando High School.
Hlungwani:
Now you are in the confusion, bullets, teargas, running away of the students. Then what happened?
Nzima:
I ran round until I joined Moffat where he was standing against the wall of the house where he was taking the pictures while he was riding (?) the balcony. Then I joined him there. Immediately I arrived there, I saw two students fell down with a bullet. Two students were shot down.
Hlungwani:
You actually saw them being shot down?
Nzima:
I saw them falling.
Hlungwani:
And then?
Nzima:
They were taken by some motorist to Baragwanath Hospital. After that as …
Hlungwani [intervenes]:
How many were then taken to …
Nzima:
Two that time. I left Moffat, I ran to the other corner, then I met a man who was wearing an overall, with a girl accompanying him, carrying a boy of about 8 or 10 years of age.
Hlungwani:
Did you later find out that it was Petersen?
Nzima:
I saw this in the papers, because Sophie Tema followed to the clinic where he was certified dead, then she got the name there.
Hlungwani:
Who took the picture of him being carried away by some man?
Nzima:
I took the picture.
Hlungwani:
You did take it?
Nzima:
That is correct. Sophie was behind me, coming with the press car, she was coming with the press car towards the crowd, as I saw this boy was carried and running towards where the press car was stationary now at that time.
I hung around. I did not go to the clinic. Sophie helped them into the press car and they drove him to the clinic where the doctor certified him dead.
It was a shooting and a throwing of stones that time, it was confusion; people were running up and down.
Hlungwani:
I believe you were taking photos of this.
Nzima:
Yes, I was continually taking pictures.
Hlungwani:
Of the continual shooting.
Nzima:
Yes.
[…]
Hlungwani:
How do you—what is your opinion on the police action that day?
Nzima:
I am not clear there. I am not clear what you mean by the police action.
Hlungwani:
I mean that they were in danger when they shot …
Nzima:
No, when they started shooting they were not in danger. Why I say this is because the students were not armed actually, they were just waving the placards and singing Morena Vuluka and there was no violence that time.
Chairman Cillié:
No stone throwing?
Nzima:
Not at all.
Cillié:
Are you quite certain?
Nzima:
100% certain.
Cillié:
Because you see—first of all did you see these people taunting the police?
Nzima:
With the placards, yes.
Cillié:
You know what taunting means?
Nzima:
Yes, they were just waving them as they were coming, showing that they were carrying slogans of Afrikaans.
Cillié:
The report which is written about that was that they taunted the police. Could that be—the report is: when the police arrived, the section of the crowd began taunting them and waving placards, while the remainder kept singing.
Nzima:
That is correct.
Cillié:
Now is that correct?
Nzima:
Yes.
Cillié:
Now you see, I want to read to you the report of the 17th, the one which was apparently from the statement given by Miss Tema. It reads as follows: A White policeman then hurled what seemed to be a teargas shell which released a cloud of smoke or gas into the crowd. Miss Tema did not get close enough to be affected by the gas and she did not see if any of the students were affected. That is correct?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Cillié:
Now listen to the next: Miss Tema said that the crowd immediately became angry and began throwing rocks and any other objects they could find at the police.
Nzima:
No.
Cillié:
Is that wrong?
Nzima:
Wrong.
Cillié:
If I remember correctly, that is what she said here too, was it not?
Dr. Yutar:
Yes.
Cillié:
She said that in evidence a little while ago. You say that is not correct.
Nzima:
No, I did not see such thing. There was no stone throwing before the teargas and firing.
Cillié:
No, no, you know exactly what I said to you. I have read to you that the teargas was thrown.
Nzima:
That is right.
Cillié:
And the report is that immediately after the teargas was thrown, the demonstrators started throwing stones at the police, and the police thereafter shot.
Nzima:
Maybe that is what she had seen. I did not see such action.
Cillié:
But you were there, you …
Nzima:
Yes, I was there.
Cillié:
Well, then, who is wrong? Whose report is wrong then? She or you?
Nzima:
According to what I have seen, I think she is wrong, I am right.
Cillié:
I forget her statement, is that the same order too in her statement?
Yutar:
Yes. Paragraph 8.
Cillié:
In the statement, paragraph 8, page 2, that is also what I have read is the report from the newspaper. Now, you had said that they were not in danger, that nothing had happened, there was no reason for them at all to shoot at that stage.
Nzima:
There was no danger at that stage, but later there was a danger because the students were scattered all over and the police were surrounded after that.
Cillié:
Were the police surrounded?
Nzima:
After the shots, the students scattered all over then, the police were surrounded.
Cillié:
Was it possible for the demonstrators to surround the police? Was there enough room for them to surround the police?
Nzima:
There were so many students, they ran to that side and others ran to that side, they came from that hill, there is a little hill there where they got rocks, then they went for the police.
Cillié:
When did you first see that they might surround the police?
Nzima:
That they might surround the police?
Cillié:
Yes. Well, you know, you see them standing there and then eventually they surrounded the police. When did you first see them owng to surround the police?
Nzima:
First of all they were running away, but from running away they turned back in retaliation, throwing the stones and the police were shooting that time.
Cillié:
Did you see anybody give them a sign, an indication that they should surround the police?
Nzima:
No, I did not.
[…]
Cillié:
When you came to Morris Isaacson you saw a crowd some distance ahead of you?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Cillié:
Now, when you saw that crowd, were they from Morris Isaacson and from Naledi?
Nzima:
No, they were Morris Isaacson and other schools.
Cillié:
Other schools?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Cillié:
Nobody from Naledi there?
Nzima:
No.
Cillié:
So you formed the idea that there was nobody from Naledi at any event that you could see.
Nzima:
We were later told that Naledi High School they went down to collect the Chiawelo High School and others to join.
Cillié:
They went in a different direction?
Nzima:
That is correct.
Cillié:
But they all came together near Orlando West?
Nzima:
I do not know what time they came together because some were coming from the other direction and the other direction when we met there at Orlando High School, so the mob was—the crowd was to [too, so] big that I did not ask which school and which school participated in this crowd.
Cillié:
What time would you say the shooting actually occurred?
Nzima:
I think it was about 10 o'clock.
[…]
I do not know the name of the street, but the shooting took place in front of Orlando West High School.
Source: Sam Nzima (photographer for the newspaper The World), testimony, September 1976, SAB K345, vol. 139, file 2/3, part 1, Commission Testimony vol. 10.
